Edward “Redsleeves” Goodman

Ancestry of Edward Goodman

The Father of Edward Goodman was Thomas ap Edward ap Ievan Goch, of Llandyrnog (a small village in Denbighshire, 3 miles E by S from Denbigh, and just north of Ruthin). Based on Edward’s birth date, his father would have been born about 1456 or earlier. He may also have been known as “Redsleeves”. Goch/Coch means “The Red” in Welsh. Thomas ap Edward ap Ievan Goch may have been one of the personal Welsh “billmen”, in the personal guard of Henry VII at the Battle of Bosworth, in 1485. This was the deciding battle of the War of the Roses, in which King Richard III of York was killed, and Henry VII became the first Tudor King of England. The emblem of the house of York was the white rose, and the red rose was the emblem of the house of Lancaster, to which Henry Tudor belonged. Unfortunately, there were no muster lists of participants of this battle, so this cannot be proven. More on possibly related participants in the Battle of Bosworth.

According to another source, “The History of the Princes, the Lords Marcher, and the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fadog …” by Jacob Youde William Lloyd, on p.187, he indicates that Edward Goodman’s patriarchic lineage was: “Edward Goodman ab Thomas ab Edward ab Thomas ab Edward ab John.”. This naming pattern and lineage solidifies that this line was of pure Welsh/Celtic origins, and not from the various Romans, Vikings, Saxons or Normans that came into Britain later.

In “Annals and Antiquities of North Wales“, it is noted that this family did not remain prominent for long in Denbigh, except for Gawen, and his son Edward, as previously noted. Many apparently spread across Wales, England, and America, and possibly into Scotland and Ireland, from the mid-1500s through the 1700s, as they intermarried into other families, fought the wars for (and against) the King and Country, fled religious and political oppression, and expanded their businesses and inter-family associations.

See also:

Online Research Resources in Denbighshire

1718 Map of Denbighshire

A Fun Welsh Language Course

Edward Goodman’s Life and Family

Edward Goodman, Esq., a Welsh gentleman of Ruthin (Ruthyn)in Denbighshire, North Wales. He was a Burgess of Ruthin and prosperous mercer. In later days a mercer was a dealer in textiles and fabrics, but at this time it meant merchant in a more general sense. Edward was reportedly the first of the family to bear the Goodman name, at a time when surnames were first coming into general use in Wales. His name was originally Edward ap Thomas Edward before he took the Goodman surname. The use of surnames was not traditional in Wales, where they tended to use the connective “ap”, meaning “son of”, to denote their lineage, as their Celtic ancestors did before them. So, Edward ap Thomas Edward would be Edward, son of Thomas Edward. The policy of using surnames in Wales was initiated by Henry VIII (1509-1558), with the intention of abolishing all distinction between the English and Welsh. Welsh Surnames and their Meaning.

Edward Goodman was born in 1476, and died 22 May 1560. Denbighshire Count records (DCR: DD/WY/6461) indicate that he married Cisely Thelwell in 1522, when he was 46 years old and she was 29. In that record, he is named as Edward ap Thomas Edward, occupation Mercer, and she is named as Cisely Goodman, formerly Thelwell, spinster. He was already a prosperous man to be identified as a Mercer in the 1522. They had at least three sons. Gawen, Gabriel, and Godfrey are mentioned in his will. The will of Edward Goodman was proved 3 January, 1561. (2 Loftis, Prerogative Court of Canterbury). They also had at least five daughters: Dorothy, Katherine, Fides, Clare, and Jane .

Cisely Goodman was born 1493 and died 4 January 1583. She was the daughter of Edward Thelwell of Plás y Ward. Edward Thelwell was also a Burgess of Denbigh, 1487-1544 (DCR: DD/WY/1532-9). Edward Goodman probably assumed his father-in-law’s position as Burgess ca 1544. There were continuing Thelwell / Goodman connections in later generations, as mentioned in other pages on this site. Unfortunately, I have been unable to ascertain with any certainty the pedigree of Edward Thelwell. Numerous records of this Edward Thelwell exist in the Denbigh County Archives, which may shed some light on this.

That Edward Goodman was an important man of his time is further confirmed by the existence of a brass tablet, originally in a nave at Ruthin Castle in Denbigh, then the home of the Thelwells. That brass is a portrait of Edward and Cisely with 8 children. (“A Manual of Monumental Brasses”, Rev. Herbert Haines, (1861), Bath, Eng., (Rep. 1970), p. 215). According to the names on the mural, the eight Goodman children in the brass mural at Ruthin Castle were Gawen, Gabriel, Godfrey, Dorothy, Katherine, Fides, Clare and Jonet. Below the likenesses of the Goodman family, it reads:

Here under lyeth Edward Goodman Burgess
and Mercer of Ruthin who in the .84. of his age
departed this lyfe the 22. Maye.1560.and with
him is enterred Cicelye his wife Wch remaynninge
widow.24 yeares after his departure, deceassed
the 4 of januarrie 1583, in the 90 yeare of hir age.

The birth dates of Edward and Cicely can therefore be derived from their respective death dates and ages written above. It has been learned that this mural may now reside in the Ruthin Church. It is no longer at Ruthin Castle, which is now a premium hotel, at which regular Medieval Banquets are performed for tourists.

William, Richard, Christopher, and Thomas Goodman all lived about the same time as Edward. However, these were not mentioned in his will, and may have been brothers, cousins, or other relations. See Other Goodmans page.

See PDF image of Edward Goodman’s will.

Digital Image of Portrait of Edward Goodman, on display at the National Museum and Gallery of Wales, Cardiff.

Issue of Edward Goodman and Ciselye Thelwell:

  1. Gawen Goodman, Esq. Eldest son and heir of Edward Goodman.
  2. Gabriel Goodman, b. Nov 6, 1528, in Nantclwyd House, Ruthin, Denbighshire, d.1601. Dean of Westminster.
  3. Godfrey Goodman, Sr.
  4. Dorothy
  5. Katherine m. Hugh Gwyn Salusbury, and they had son William Salusbury, one of the heirs of Bishop Godfrey Goodman
  6. Fides
  7. Clare
  8. Jane m. William Griffifth of Flintshire.

Robinson is named as a brother in the will of Godfrey (Sr.) Goodman. However, in that same will, Godfrey also names “my brother and sister Robinson”, indicating that one of his sisters probably married a Robinson, who was a brother-in-law, and not his natural brother. He would have been the husband of Fides, Clare or Dorothy, since the husbands of Jane and Katherine are documented and known.

Edward Goodman also served Sir Thomas Gruffin:

f. 70., f. 71., f. 72. – 1 Aug., … Edw. Goodman, for his master Sir Thos. Gruffin, coats and conduct of 500 men out of Northamptonshire, 167l. 10s. [‘Henry VIII: April 1546, 21-25’, Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 21 Part 1: January-August 1546 (1908), pp. 305-334. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=80847&strquery=goodman


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